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An Online Ethnic Debate (2)

14 November 2008
 

Chinese Han people are known as one of the most literature-wise and culture-oriented folks on earth with events in the human sphere and beyond observed and recorded faithfully, meticulously and continuously for thousands of years.

(tianya.cn/publicforum/content/free/1/1448181.shtml)

An Online Ethnic Debate (1)

琼子姐姐 (Tu)

I'm a doctor in Jianshi. I have one question for Talk Once: if somebody comes to our Enshi to say Ming's killing of Tu people is a good thing, and for that he got a tight slap from a Tu youth, do you reckon the youth as being very violent?

Besides, Manchus' conquer of China was the barbarian's victory over the civilisation, which dragged China into a 300-year dark age and fell behind on progress.

我是建始的一个医生。我想请教'我只发言一次'一个问题,如果一个人到我们恩施来宣传明军对土家的屠杀是应该的, 是好事, 某个土家后生在找不到平等对话的基础上打了他一个巴掌,是不是很过份?

还有个区别, 满*入侵中原, 是野蛮战胜了文明, 而且确实是把中国带入了一个黑暗落后的世界。而我们土家应该没有因为明朝的融合而更加落后吧?

西风啸残月 (Tu):

琼子姐姐, what a co-incident; me too, from Jianshi. Could you please tell me where is your hospital or clinic? I would advise you to go ask anybody in our region to see if you can find one whose ancestors did not migrate from Han area. In Jianshi, nobody is a real ethnic Tu - maybe there are a few in Hefeng and Xianfeng. It is the self-mutilation policy that allocated the entire Enshi as minority ethnic self-autonomous region, and now you talk about Tu youth, don't you think it sounds like a bad joke? Where are the genuine Tu youth? Tell you what, if Yan dares to come to Enshi, I will also give him a hard slap in his face.

Let me add one more point. By the time the Tu and Miao ethnic self-autonomous region came into being, I was in grade two, and my teacher asked each student to advise her the ethnic background so she could fill a form. After went through a few students, she found an easy way to deal the matter and told us: I just make you all ethnic Tu, so late on you will be eligible to receive special benefits in tertiary education and many other areas, after all, it's just a piece of paper and won't change who you are. And that was how I became ethnic Tu. In fact, my father was from Jinzhou (荆州), mother is a Henan (河南) native. And my grandfather still remembered the stories of how our ancestors resettled here.

According to what I know from my experience (by the way, I'm 34 this year), the majority ethnic "Tu" are in fact people from Hunan, Sichuan and Hubei. But the Tu (meaning native) originally means the native in Enshi region. So now I'm quite confused, what native really means.

琼子姐姐, 真还巧了, 我也是建始的。 请问你是建始哪个地方的医生? 你随便问个土家族[一个]人, 哪个祖宗八代上不是从汉族地区迁移过来的? 在建始见过谁是真正的土家? 你回去问你的父母。或者说鹤丰, 咸丰还有那么几个已经被同化的土家族[以外], 整[真]个恩施地区居民基本都是外地移民。一个自我阉割的民族政策把整个恩施都划为少数民族自治州, 你还在这里当宝了!还土家后生, 我晕! 可以这么说, 如果阎老狗敢去恩施, 我也想扇它耳光!

补充一下。记得当年恩施成立土家族苗族自治州时, 我正在读小学二年纪, 在课堂上老师问我们是什么民族, 好填档案上报民族人口。最后老师很干脆的说: 你们全都报土家族, 以后考学或者其他什么的都有优惠, 反正就是随便填一个, 没有什么大问题。然后我就成了土家族一员。其实我父系荆州, 母系河南。据我外公讲述祖辈传下来当初迁移到恩施地区来时的辛苦, 用四个字形容当时生产情况, 就是"挽草为界"。

根据我所接触的土家人来看(我今年34了), 他们不是湖南\四川, 就是湖北迁移过来的。而所谓土家族定义就是恩施本土土著居民?何谓土著, 我就不解释了吧!

pengfengtian (Tu):

I'm ethnic Tu in Hubei Enshi, and from my point of view, 80 percent of Tus in Enshi were Hans. My parents are all Hans, and I changed to Tu only to enjoy preferential policy on tertiary education. Tu and Han are closely bound by blood, language and culture, and Tu never for once tried to go independent until Manchus came to power who abolished the self-autonomous policy (土司自治) long held by Han governments, while replaced with Qing's rule of ethnic suppression and apartheid, which caused the conflicts between Tus and Manchus.

我是湖北恩施土家族的,在我看来,我们恩施的土家族百分之八十都是汉族改的。我父母都是汉族,为了高考能享受优惠政策,才去民政局改成了土家族。而且土家族在血缘、语言和习惯上都和汉族有密切的联系,土家族在历史上从没有和中央政权闹过别扭,一直都是土司执政,和中央政府一直相安无事,到了满清时代雍正年间,“改土归流”,被清政府废除了土司自治,才换成了清廷的民族高压政策。

zwgtz :

Talk Once is indeed shameless, 'cause I'm sure you are not Tu. Why do you want to pretend to one while you're not? Is this your Manchus' typical old trick? It seems if you guys are not there sowing the seeds of discord between peoples in the south and the north, you'll have to do something to provoke conflict between Hans and other ethnic groups. I wasn't going to say something in this debate initially, but you guys are just so outrageous. I didn't have much negative opinions about you people, but now I really think you are just rubbish!

楼主真无耻,你肯定不是土家族人,为什么冒充土家人??你们满*就会这个,不是挑拨南北汉人关系,就是挑拨汉族和其他民族的关系。本来不想说话,你们实在太垃圾了,以前对你们民族没什么感觉,现在真讨厌你们这个民族,真是一个垃圾的民族。

你们满*冒充土**,敢不敢冒充蒙**,维*,回*?就你们那个欺软怕硬的德性,估计不敢, 就知道欺负土家*这样善良的民族。

我是闷墩儿 (Tu):

Those who attack Hans, you'd better to listen this carefully: Yan got slapped in the face not because of his talk about history but his assault on basic human decency. Let's not excuse him for his actions because of his age; he's old enough to understand what he can say and what he can't. Japanese war criminal 岗村宁次 was also over 70 when he was tried, do you think the international court was too cruel to do so?

Talk Once, you hear me, we Tu people don't have a conscienceless freak like you. You make us feel embarrassed and you insulted our dignity.

那些诽谤[歪曲]汉族的人,请看清楚了。大汉之风打的是阎狗的道德沦丧,不要以什么老人来博取同情,这么大年纪了还这样的乱说,该打!难道说年纪大了就有特权?岗村宁次也是70岁的人,法庭审判他真的很不道德,因为他是老人。

楼主,我们土家没有你这种人,你很丢我们面子,也侮[屈]辱我土家的人格。若你是土家人请回答土家7大姓是哪七大, 土家称汉族人为什么, 北方土家和南方土家在语音上的区别。比如南方土家元音59个,北方多少个呢?

苏荀 (Tu):

We should not remember the past for stirring hate in public or wanting revenge, but neither must we forget the historical lesson! Manchus dragged the entire China into the abyss, and brought disastrous consequences to Hans and all other ethnic Chinese. Yet Talk Once would be so sinister as to pretend to be another minority ethnic identity while attacking Hans. You guys are just like your shameless ancestors. Fortunately, majority people here can see through you.

I say Talk Once, go to Wild Three Pass or Youyang and stay there for sometime, you'll learn some historical truth. I'd never heard the killing of ethnic Tus by the Ming emperor, I only know many soldiers of Ming General Qi Jiguang (戚继光) were us Tus.

As for a professor on Manchu history who promotes genocide publicly on TV, should we just pardon him because he's an old man? Those bleeding hearts who condemn the young man for slapping Yan's face, I would like to ask you one question: I'm 65, and I am now gravely offended and insulted by that genocide promoter, do you guys also have your hearts bleeding for me?

满清把整个中国拉进黑暗的深渊,[包括]汉族和其他兄弟民族均受其害。历史不是铭记仇恨,但历史的血泪也不能忘记!满清的罪恶,伤害的不止是汉族,还有其他兄弟民族!无耻的满遗却喜欢冒充其他少数民族,企图破坏民族关系,居心险恶,继承其祖宗一贯的无耻嘴脸!不过大多数同胞兄弟是清醒的,看到好多真正的土家族兄弟是站在正义的一边的!是非善恶,不是胡搅蛮缠就能混淆!楼猪你这个阴险无耻的满遗分子就不要再揣着明白装糊涂,装疯卖傻耍无赖,冒充真正的土家族兄弟了!!!连土家七大姓是哪些和土家自称什么,称汉族人什么,这些个最基本的常识都不知道,还敢撒谎说自己是土家族,这也太没有说服力了吧,脸皮也不是一般的厚啊!!!

披我土家外衣干些龌龊勾当的楼主,麻烦你先到野三关或者酉阳去生活一段时间来。 我没有听说过明朝皇帝杀土家。我只听说我们过小年的由来,还知道了戚继光的兵是土家族。

殴打老人?这叫殴打?说真的,我觉得大汉之风的行为有些过激,但是可以理解。他也为这事进了拘留所, 为他的冲动付出代价。我们是一个大家庭,最少表面称为中华民族。你见到的社会风气是否不是很好了?是不是比原来下降?作为一个有影响力的教授在台上宣扬杀人的事竟然一点注脚都不带, 这不是教坏人民让道德沦丧么?是老人就可以原谅?你 那博爱的包容心能包容阎教授,怎么不能包容我这[同样]65岁的老人呢?这是选择性包容还是我 是你 的敌人?

没鸟画一个玩 (Manchu)

As a regime with only a population of hundreds of thousands, we ruled a country with hundreds of millions of people for nearly 300 years, we feel very proud. It is unprecedented in world history.

作为一个政权,尤其是十几万人的少数民族政权统治一个几亿人口的国家近300年,已经足够了,这在世界历史上是没有的。

维泵 (Manchu)

I call for mass killing of Han promoters.

建议严厉打击皇汉主义,大规模屠杀皇汉分子。

欧迈噶

Manchus' Qing court is a invaded alien regime, just like Japanese army in China during the WWII .

清朝属于外来政权就和日本人一样!

先发制人3 (Han) 

If an originally invaded alien group still holds a fancy to kill the main body of Chinese nation, we should regard them as our enemy and treat them accordingly.

如果外来民族依旧拥有侵越我们中国屠杀我们中国人的敌对心态,那么当然他们自己选择了当我们中国人的敌人。我们中国人就要用对待敌人的方法消灭这些反动力量!!以直报怨!!

嫣红1969 

Those Manchu promoters are more like demons now. They tasted the life of slaver owners once, and are not willing to support themselves but yearning to resume their old parasite life style. For realising this dream, they've exerted great efforts in the past twenty years, do we just stand by watching and allow them to do what they are going?

满*这个成了精的鞑靼民族, 他们尝过奴隶主的风光, 决不愿意从此老老实实做个自食其力的公民, 他们已经努力了二十年了, 我们还要看着他们继续干下去吗?

寂寞的雄鹰3 (Han)

Once I had a colleague who belongs to a minority ethnic community. Generally speaking he's a pretty good guy and we got on quite well, but once he really drove me nuts. By then another colleague had a bad row with a security guard, later when he learned the incident, he said to me, "Let me go to teach him a lesson. I'm from an ethnic minority background, I can get away with beating that Han fella up - the authority can do nothing about it!" 

我曾经有个同事,是海南的一个少民,其实关系不错,为人也豪爽,但有一次他说的话让我非常愤怒,因为我的另一个同事和保安发生了冲突,争执了几句,后来这个少民同事对我们说:“这事让我去嘛,我去打他,我是少数民族,打那个汉人完全是白打!国家不会管我们的!”

贫血_orz (Tu):

Give me a break, Talk Once, won't you! My ancestors fled to west Hunan from Beijing when Manchus invaded, so originally my family was Hans. But prior to go to Beijing, my forebears were chieftains of a native tribe in Hunan, but before that, they were Hans again in north of China.

Those who keep accusing others of being narrow-minded nationalists are extremists themselves. What laid under the Manchu soldiers' horses were not just the flesh and blood of people in Jiangnan , but that of Tu people in Hunan. Wherever there were Manchus, there were disasters and death.

LZ你可以洗洗睡了。我祖上是明末清从北京一代因和南明王朝关系密切逃难到湘西的,这么算可以说是汉人。但是族谱上溯说我家明代是湖南蛮地土司,因为战败投降(好囧=、=+++)被举族迁往北方,族谱上再上去找,又说我们家族原本是从北方逃难来的,貌似血统里面还有慕容氏的遗迹,再再往上去又说我们一家是从湖南云梦泽边迁往北方的。所以可以这么说,湖南到北方,再从北方到南方,然后又从南方被抓到北方,最后又回到了南方。

天天说别人民族主义的人才是真正的民族主义者!大清铁蹄下践踏的不仅仅是江南人民的血肉, 还有湖南湘西土家族人民的血肉, 清军铁蹄一过,十室九空。

西风啸残月 (Tu):

In the past couple of decades, I've see so many ethnically biased policies in favour of minority ethnic groups to be implemented, from education, job promotion to childbearing. When I think of this, I feel deeply worried for our country. If you think the more ethnic groups the better, you're wrong. We have obligations to protect the genuine minority cultures, but to artificially split the major ethnic community into small ones, it is totally pathetic, and is a crime committed against our nation.

这几十年, 我看了太多因为优惠政策而改动民族的, 从上学到上班, 为自己,为儿女。其实想一想, 真还很担忧。一个国家, 并不是民族多就是好事, 民族越少才对一个国家的稳定越好, 保护真正的少数民族是刻不容缓和应该的, 而把原本是主体民族的划分出去, 那就是悲哀,就是对民族, 对国家, 对历史犯下的最大错误!

An Online Ethnic Debate (3)

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Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it

-- George Santayana


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